Talk:Gargoyle

Old gargoyles

"Gargoyles such as Hudson who live to a ripe old age are rare indeed." OK, in light of the recent revelation of (very) Old Pog's hatch year and age, this just seems silly. In human terms Old Pog is nearly 100 while Hudson is just shy of sixty. Provided he avoids hammers and robots and eats his veggies, Hudson could well have another 80 years before his Wind Ceremony. I don't doubt that gargoyles of Hudson's age were quite rare back in the Dark Ages. But one of the perks of the isolationist lifestyle most modern clans have had to practice to survive is that far fewer gargoyles are killed by humans, since the humans don't realize they exist. So while Pog could conceivably be the only surviving gargoyle in the world from his generation, I imagine there are at least some gargoyles in their 160s or older in the modern clans. So shall we change it? -- Demonskrye 16:23, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

This is a very good point. I think the sentence should be edited to reflect basically what you just said. As with humans, gargoyle soldiers in the middle ages didn't live as long as indivduals living with modern amenities. A gargoyle of the Wyvern Clan in the late 10th century that routinely engages in battle just isn't gonna live as long as a gargoyle in the 20th century that lives on an isolated estate with electricity, plumbing, etc. Anyway, go ahead and reword it, or I'll do it later. -- Matt 17:15, 29 April 2008 (CDT)

Culture

A few thoughts going through the culture section:

"While this system has traditionally been the custom, it has, in recent years, been challenged in at least one individual case: that of Angela. Thanks to her having been raised by humans, she was more ready to accept the concept of having an individual father and mother than most young gargoyles, and when she discovered from Sevarius that Goliath was her biological father, looked upon him as such. Goliath disapproved of this for a long while, feeling that such an outlook was not the Gargoyle Way, and also fearing that from there, Angela would find out who her biological mother was; certainly an understandable worry given that that same mother was Demona. But in the end, Diane Maza persuaded him to accept her, which he did."

I'm a little concerned that this section suggests that Goliath and Angela have forgone the traditional gargoyle parent-child relationship in favor of a more human one, which is not the case. The result of "Mark of the Panther" is that Goliath accepts that Angela is one of his children and that he will have a special relationship with her not because they are biologically related, but because she is the only one of his children who chose to travel with him and now lives with him as part of the Manhattan clan. I wouldn't assume that Angela is totally averse to communal parenting and will remain so either. She's never seen it work before, in part because she was raised by humans and in part because first time parent Goliath started out by giving her a pretty lousy example of how communal parenting worked to start with. I think if she talks to Broadway about his experiences in a communally raised clan or if Coldstone and Coldfire join the clan and start treatnig her as their daughter, she'll start to realize that communal parenting doesn't mean parents acting equally distant to all of their children (like Goliath was acting out of fear of favoring Angela for the wrong reasons); it means that the children are loved by all their rookery parents and parents and children are free to form special bonds regardless of biological relationship.

"Traditionally, gargoyles don't have names." Do we know for certain that all clans held this tradition? Looking at "Once Upon a Time there were Three Brothers," it seems that the Scone and Loch Ness may have practiced some degree of naming as early as 967. And we have no way of knowing how early other clans - surviving or extinct - started using names, assuming they didn't always do so. It's traditional for the Wyvern Clan at least, but beyond that is tough to say. Is there a way we could work on this or possible search the archives or ask Greg for clarification on how widespread the lack of names was both in the 900s and earlier? -- Demonskrye 15:20, 12 May 2008 (CDT)

Re: Parenting. I agree that Goliath and Angela have not foregone the traditional gargoyle parent-and-child relationship. They have a special relationship, as you say, not because of biology but because he's her only rookery father and she's his only rookery child right now.

However, I disagree with some of your points. You said Angela has never seen communal parenting in action, but she was raised communally. Her (adopted) rookery parents were Katharine, the Magus and Tom. I think she knows exactly what communal parenting is, how it works and what it's good for. In fact, she's never really witnessed anything except this form of parenting (although she may have heard about other forms).

Angela has repeatedly shown an interest in biological heritage (not only in her own relationships with Goliath and Demona, but in Gabriel's relationship to Coldstone as well). Being raised by humans may (and I stress may) have been a factor, but it's only one out of many other factors, which include Goliath's legendary status among the Avalon Clan and Sevarius' revelation in "Monsters".

So, yes, the section may need to be reworded.

Not sure about the naming thing. -- Supermorff 07:59, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Reworked the section on Angela and the Manhattan Clan's future with communal parenting. Still thinking about the names section. -- Demonskrye 20:15, 13 May 2008 (CDT)

Looks good. -- Supermorff 08:18, 14 May 2008 (CDT)

"Real World" Gargoyles

I've wanted to add some photos to this page for a long time showing actual gargoyles from the real world. The sceenshot we have now is nice, but I don't think it really fits the text. It's not a picture of real-world gargoyles; it's a screenshot of fictional architectural gargoyles from the show. On top of that, the gargoyles shown here aren't very typical of what actual gargoyles look like in the real world. Putting aside for a moment the issue of whether these are "gargoyles" or "grotesques," most real stone gargoyles are not human-sized, free-standing statues. I think we could find some suitable photos to use if we looked, but I'm not sure what our photo policies are and whether we would need to include particular links with images we got from elsewhere. Do we have a general image policy for the wiki? -- Demonskrye 15:16, 12 September 2008 (CDT)

No we don't. We could make one, but for now it might not be worth thinking about. If we can find an image that is in the public domain (and not merely Fair Use), then we can use it (but should probably include as much info about it in the Image page as possible). Most (though by no means all) pictures on Wikimedia commons are in the public domain. -- Supermorff 09:22, 13 September 2008 (CDT)

I tracked down a few public domain images of real-world gargs, uploaded them, and put them in the article. The formatting could probably use some work, but I think they're good examples of what real gargoyles typically look like. -- Demonskrye 10:35, 13 September 2008 (CDT)

Mid-section

Now that I can edit, I want to bring something up on this praticular article. Very well written, but very long to read about. I think we need mid-sections, breaking down the info to make it easier for others to find a certain information instead of scrolling up and down and reading everything. Like how the article mentioned that gargoyles have, we can lable under the secion like..."Wing Types". And for the part about gargoyles having names under the section "Naming".

I think it's a better way of organizing everything a little bit better. What do you say, my rookery brothers?--NinjaSheik 16:38, 2 May 2010 (CDT)

Sensible idea. I've made a start in the Culture and Social Customs section. Roughly what you had in mind? -- Supermorff 01:37, 3 May 2010 (CDT)

Really!? Yay, that's what I was talking about! Well, let's see...Mid-sections are sections within another section, right? Well, with everything spread out into one HUGE page, we need to break everything down. Take the Biology section for exmaple, Make mid-sections between the info in that one section. Mid-sections with "Wings Types", "Naming", ect. Or better yet, the part that explains what a gargoyle generally looks like with it's limbs, wings, and color, you can lable that part "Characteristics".

If you want, you can leave that part up to me.--NinjaSheik 18:09, 3 May 2010 (CDT)

I think the word you're looking for is "sub-sections" (mid-section just means the middle part of something, usually).

You know, why don't you have a go at adding headings to the Biology section? The rest of us will help out if you need it, but it sounds like you've already got some good ideas about how to go about it. -- Supermorff 13:40, 4 May 2010 (CDT)

Oh, yeah. Sub-sections, sorry. I got confused with the words. Silly me.

Yeah, I'll get start with it right away. Of course, I got to read everything oer again, then plan out everything in a orderly fashion.

I got to say, I'm doing a pretty good job since I started editing. I fix Demona's pictures on her page and I was able to bring up the sub-sections on this page. Anyway, I'll let you know if I need help.

EDIT: I finished! But, when I was editing, I noticed a one small thing that was missing from the article.

Shouldn't we put something in that says that gargoyles are proud creatures? Let's review, shall we? The biggest signs of a gargoyle being prideful is the episode The Dying Of The Light with Hudson. Now, to redirect this, let's look back on the episode The Cage, when Brooklyn was fighting Fang, when Brooklyn exclaims, "I'm not a man, I'm a GARGOYLE!".

And let's not forget about Demona. She hates it when people disrepsect her and her kind.

I'm not entirely sure if you guys mentioned it, but I thought it was something that should be brought up.--NinjaSheik 16:18, 4 May 2010 (CDT)

Remember, The Dying of the Light is not canon d: --Pheon 19:27, 4 May 2010 (CDT)

True, but everything else I mentioned is.--NinjaSheik 20:17, 4 May 2010 (CDT)

Gabriel's Hearing

I don't know if this means anything, but in the Avalon episodes, Gabriel clearly heard a noise in the woods, whereas Goliath and Angela, who were with him, didn't hear anything. I always attributed this to Gabriel's ears being a different shape and therefore, providing him with superior hearing when compared to the other gargoyles. Broadway would fall under this category as well. Again, maybe it means something... maybe it doesn't. Discuss? DTaina 01:55, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

On the one hand, some humans have better hearing than others, regardless of how their ears are shaped. On the other hand, Broadway did say about his own ears, "ears like these don't miss much." But that may be gargoyle ears in general. I'm not sure. --GregX 03:03, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

I don't think that's the case. Maybe Gabriel was more alert than Goliath and his cute cousin, Angela. And hello? Can someone respond that what I wrote above?--NinjaSheik 16:32, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Cute cousin? Don't you mean sister? --GregX 16:50, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Nope! They're cousins. Othello and Desdemona are Gabriel's parents, right? And Othello is Goliath's brother, his real brother, not the rookery brother. (I remember reading something about the two being real brothers, but I'm not so sure.) Therefore, Gabriel and Angela are cousins.--NinjaSheik 17:35, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Othello and Goliath are rookery brothers, not biological brothers. Keep in mind, gargoyles only lay one egg per cycle, and no one in any generation is anyone's biological sibling, but they're all rookery siblings. Gabriel and Angela are siblings. When talking about gargoyles, please refrain from the use of the word "real." "Real brothers, real parents," etc. Biological relationships aren't that important. Or, to quote Greg Weisman: quit thinking like a human. --GregX 18:06, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Okie-dokie, rookery brother! Tee hee hee! Now, can someone please give me a respond to what I wrote about the gargoyles being prideful and all?--NinjaSheik 18:11, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Here's my response. I think it's too monolithic. Just because we've seen one or two gargoyles acting prideful does not make it a species trait. No more than saying all of the Quarrymen are just violent thugs. I know you referenced TGC earlier, but that is not evidence of anything as the episodes are not canon. --GregX 18:14, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Okay! Well...Is there any pages here that needs to be edit? I can move pictures around to make it look better on the page or I can narrow down a page with a bunch of info like this one.--NinjaSheik 18:20, 5 May 2010 (CDT)

Page Split

There's talk of splitting this page into one on biology (Gargoyles) and one on Culture (the Gargoyle Way). The latter would take a lot of the culture stuff from this page and also incorporate the various credos and sayings and traditions. ("Human problems become...", "A gargoyle can no more stop protecting...", "By the dragon...", naming, Wind Ceremony, Ishimura facing inward, etc.) Thoughts? -- Matt (talk) 11:45, 6 March 2024 (PST)

I'm in favor.--GregX (talk) 16:39, 6 March 2024 (PST)

Also ok with the split. Out of curiosity, I just checked the community portal page and saw how Gargoyle Way was requested back in 2008! It's just wonderful that we have so much new canon to finally tip that scale :--) --Pheon (talk) 20:47, 6 March 2024 (PST)

Took a gander and toggled the page a bit to see what both pages might eventually look like (no actual edits yet), and I wanted to go over more specifics. As mentioned by Matt above, a large part of the culture section would fit in the future Gargoyle Way page. Subsections like Clans and Family, Naming, Crime, Religion and Magic look like easy transplants, but I was wondering about the Territory and Protection subsection, which for me could fit on either. Also, did we want to consider merging the pages of the three ceremonies we now know of into the Gargoyle Way page (Naming Ceremony, Commitment Ceremony, Wind Ceremony) or leave them separate? --Pheon (talk) 17:34, 9 March 2024 (PST)