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Greg, did you mean to delete the entry "Canmore invades Scotland in alliance with the English."? I know we don't have an exact date for it yet but it is important context for the defeat of Macbeth. Otherwise it looks like Macbeth was defeated as part of the 1054 invasion instead, that it lasted 3 years. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 09:50, 21 November 2007 (CST)


Phenomena is the original reading from Greg's entry quoted in the Timeline entry. I changed it back to the exact quote when I realized that it isn't a typo. The Matrix is made up of millions of nanobots, so referring to it in the plural is not incorrect, just unusual. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:10, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

Okay. Sorry about that then. I suppose it could have referred to many (plural) phenomena caused by or related to the Matrix, instead of the Matrix itself? Or Greg may have made a typo when he typed it out first time. If you want to change it back again, I won't change it back again... uh... you know what I mean. -- Supermorff 10:18, 6 September 2007 (CDT)

Canon vs. Canon-in-Training

Because this article is in the Canon category, and because canon-in-training information is still subject to change, I propose to put all of the canon-in-training entries in bold. Obviously nearly all the dates are known only through Ask Greg, and they are all formatted in bold anyhow. I'm only interested in bolding entries for events which are not shown or referred to in canon, or (such as the timing of Nokkar's arrival) for which the date is not so much as hinted in the canon. Vaevictis Asmadi 18:46, 24 July 2007 (CDT)

I intend to leave known historical events as "canon" since they probably aren't subject to change. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:45, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
I'm also leaving real historical characters un-marked, even though some of them are categorized as C-i-T -- such as Maol Chalvim I. I know this is sort of inconsistent and maybe should be changed later, but I'm trying for the moment to only mark information that is not known through real history or legend. I'm not sure if this is the correct approach, but it is a start. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 11:42, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

A.D or C.E?

I suppose it's theoretically possible that I once used BCE and CE in some specific context, but I almost exclusively use BC and AD. Certainly, my own timeline uses BC and AD. Where did you get the idea that I preffered BCE and CE? - gdw

I was making an inference based on one of your rambles where you discuss the timeline you wrote. The ramble in question is here. I figured since you wrote "from 9386 B.C.E." that was the convention you were using for your written version of the timeline. I suppose I was incorrect in making that deduction?--Moeen 09:46, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
Alright, next time somebody decides to re-format a bunch of pages without asking first, I'm going to let somebody else standardise everything.
So Greg, which convention do you prefer, or which do you prefer we use here? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:45, 19 August 2007 (CDT)
Personally, I use BC and AD. But that doesn't mean you guys have to here. This isn't MY site. It belongs to all of you and I pitch in every once in a while. The point I was trying to make was that if the change was being made because "This is how Greg likes it" then that premise is faulty. My gut, I think, is to stick with BC and AD, because that's what the show itself used. But I'll leave the final decision up to you guys. Take a vote.
My apologies, Greg, if I came off as presumptuous. I'll be more careful about my inferences in the future. You are correct, of course, that since this is a fan site, decisions about preferences should be made collectively.
Having said that, I don't see why we can't use both A.D. and C.E., given that the numbers don't change, and there's little chance of confusing the dates as a result. --Moeen 15:36, 23 August 2007 (CDT)

other stuff

Um, there's a lot there that is historical, or makes sense within context that shouldn't make it Canon-In-Training. If Fox had a parole hearing the day after she saved the life's guard, how is that anything other than common sense? Of course that means it's expedited.

On that note, Macbeth's cousin is listed as canon-in-training when he was historically real. (preceding unsigned comment by Greg B.?)

If you think I should change the parole hearing stuff, then I will.

Thorfinn is historical but his involvement in the events listed, and his described manner of death, are not historical, so far as I know. I mostly used Wikipedia to figure out if events were historical or fictional/speculative (and had a heck of a time tracking down the source for that Barricades Revolution). So for example, if Greg says "date - John Lennon born" that would go unmarked, but if he said "date - John Lennon has a secret meeting with the London clan" or "date - John Lennon dies in a car accident in Prague" that's canon-in-training. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 14:38, 10 September 2007 (CDT)

By the way, the Revolution of the Barricades is a historical event. --Moeen 00:03, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
The one in 1832? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 09:19, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
Yup. :-) --Moeen 14:31, 11 September 2007 (CDT)
Cool, thanks for helping. I'll change that.

Re: Philibert Aspairt, I had completely forgotten that historical facts are not marked CIT. My bad. -- Supermorff 15:15, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

No problem. Some people also aren't familiar with some historical events, so tend to mark them as CIT believing they're fiction. The stuff from France isn't that well known to Americans. You won't find some things in Wikipedia (hard to believe, I know), but there's always the internet. If you like wikis though, you might try the French Wikipedia. Here's the article on Philibert: [1], and the "Revolution of the Barricades" I think: [2], although I don't think the French call it that.--Moeen 00:42, 4 November 2007 (CDT)
Thanks. Actually, I Googled him yesterday and came up with that exact page, but not knowing French that well I didn't really understand what it said. Oh well. -- Supermorff 07:27, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Propose Splitting 1996, and perhaps other major years

As some have noticed, this page has become pretty massive. 1996 particularly takes up a lot of room, and there enough info there for it to be worthy of its own page. Since there doesn't seem to be a consensus, I suggest we vote on whether we should split off 1996 or not. So cast in your vote (Split. or Keep.) below along with your reason, and say a week from today we'll go ahead with whatever we decide. Fair enough? Here goes.--Moeen 00:49, 4 November 2007 (CDT)

  • Split. The page has become unwieldy, and 1996 has enough info to deserve its own page.--Moeen 00:49, 4 November 2007 (CDT)
  • I'm sorry, but I find the Timeline easier to handle as is. We are not splitting it, I don't mean to be rude, but I am pulling rank here. This is not up for vote. --Greg Bishansky
  • Split. I may be putting my neck on the line following Greg B's comment, but I think this needs to be done. The Timeline is already huge, and it will only get longer. My computer is on the limits of being able to handle editing it, and soon it just won't be able to. Some editors may have computers that can easily deal with the information, but others do not and it's never good policy to alienate potential users. In a perfect world, I do think it would be easier if all the information was in one place, but I don't think separating off a few sections will make it overly complicated. As I said before, I think it needs to be done. -- Supermorff 07:25, 4 November 2007 (CST)
  • Split. I'd say leave most the timeline the way it is, but have links at 1994-1996 (and maybe other years later) due to how massive those years are getting. It reminds me of the Timeline at Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki. Now our timeline isn't as massive as theirs, but one day it could be. They have sperate pages for years, decades, centuries, whatever works best. Anyway, don't want to piss off Greg B here, but if done correctly, this would look pretty good. Greg, I'd like to better understand why you feel it is easier to handle as is. I find myself constantly scrolling and dancing around to find a certain date. It's chaotic. -- Matt 4 November 2007
    • Okay, first off, no one is "putting necks on the line" or "pissing me off" just for having opinions. But, earlier, when it was split, I gave it a try, and I'm sorry, but I know I would find it annoying having to go to multiple pages at once just to edit the Timeline. Supermorff, I'm sorry your computer is having trouble with it, but mine isn't, and so far I don't think too many other people are having that problem. Matt, I don't know if you are, or not, but you can always use Ctrl+F to find what you're looking for in the Timeline without having to constantly scroll. That's what I do when I'm in a hurry. I'm sorry you find it unwieldy or chaotic, but I disagree. I find it very straight forward and easy to use. I don't think a split needs to be done. -- User:Greg Bishansky
      • I don't mean to sound rude but, pull rank? Users are ranked on this site? Why haven't I seen this anywhere? I thought this being a fansite decisions were made by consensus? (Someone should really write guidelines for this site somewhere, perhaps whoever has the highest rank?). Secondly, sounds to me like if you need to resort to Ctrl+F to find something, this page is already too massive. Also, 1994-6 are major years and being where most of the series takes place are pretty self-contained. Being major years at least 1996 deserves its own page (it takes up about half the timeline as it is!). I honestly don't see how having that year on its own page makes the timeline that much harder to edit. It's not exactly being split into a whole lot of pages, just one to three more. If you find it hard to edit, you could just leave the adding of events to other users that find it otherwise.--Moeen 12:21, 4 November 2007 (CST)
  • I dunno whether a rank system exists or not here, but it doesn't matter. We all want what is best on this site and we disagree on what that is. Frankly, I can see the advantages and disadvantages to both proposals. The reason I say split it also has to do with the fact that the timeline is slowly, but surely growing. With Greg W's "This Day in...", the revelations from the Gargoyles comic and all the stuff thats gonna be coming with spinoffs, the timeline is going to get huge. It already is. Greg W. says his timeline is hundreds of pages long. Do we want the equivalent of a hundred or two hundred page document on one GargWiki page? I don't think so. Eventually, we are going to HAVE to split up the page, so we may as well do it now. I can see something like a page for all the pre-history stuff, a page from then to say where Dark Ages starts, a page from there to 1994, a page for '94, '95, and '96 (and eventually one for '97 as well), and a page for the future stuff. All these pages could be linked sequencely. Right now a far simpler spliting would be all that was neccesary, but one day... Anyway, thats what I envision. A 300 page timeline on one GargWiki page isn't a good idea. --Matt 4 November 2007
Keep I don't know what all the rank stuff is about, but I don't want to split it. 1996 is already a subsection that can be edited by itself. I always edit just one subsection at a time. Making 1996 a separate page won't make it any smaller than it already is, and you can already edit it as a subsection instead of editing the entire page. That's why I created a separate subsection for Before 1994, so it could be edited separately. But I would find it much harder to edit if it was entirely separate pages. Maybe one day we will have to split it, but I don't think it's necessary yet. If we did split it, it would look pretty silly to have Future and Before 1994 and Dim Prehistory all on one page, we'd have to make each subsection a separate page. But why would it be easier to edit them then, when they can already be edited separately? I guess I don't understand why it is causing a problem.
I also use Ctrl+F and not just on the Timeline, but on most Gargwiki pages except for the shortest stubs. I don't consider it a sign that a page is too long.
But I don't like the idea of "pulling rank." I don't think that any one of us should be able to disregard consensus. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 19:02, 4 November 2007 (CST)
Keep' I gotta side with Greg B. here. Maybe one day we'll have to split the timeline into separate sections, but for now, I think it's fine the way it is. It's easier to find stuff (just go to "find") because it's all in one place. We can worry about splitting the timeline when it truly does become unmanageable, if it ever comes to that. Dtaina 20:37, 4 November 2007 (CST)

Okay, it's been over a week so I'll close voting on this idea. The result was No Consensus with 3 voting to split (myself, Matt, and Supermorff) and 3 voting to keep (Greg B., V.A., and Dtaina). Greg W. said he found the page unwieldy but did not put up a vote. So out of 78 admins here, about 7 offered opinions (we are such an active group aren't we?). Given that this is the case, I suggest we try Supermorff's idea of transcluding major years. We can just test it out on 1994, and if that goes well, we can continue with it, and if not, we can always revert to what we had before. Are there any major objections, or should we vote on this as well?--Moeen 14:40, 11 November 2007 (CST)

(P.S. Let's not "pull rank" or do stuff like that here. As a fan site, it's only fair that the fans as a group should resolve disagreements instead of a select few pushing their weight onto everyone else.--Moeen 14:40, 11 November 2007 (CST))

When I split the 1994 section off into a new article, I transcluded the new page back into the Timeline. This means that when you are looking through the Timeline, it would look exactly the same as it does now. Information should be no harder to find, whether you use Ctrl-F or not, and there would be no need to split off random sections either. The only difference would occur when editing the page, and I understand that it would perhaps be a bit harder to manage, but I don't think it would be much harder.
There is a possible compromise, in which the section headings are split off as well and transcluded, instead of left in the original article. This would mean that the [edit] link beside the heading would take you to the edit page of the new article. If we did it that way, editing the Timeline should (hopefully) be no harder than editing section-by-section. Is it worth trying like that? -- Supermorff 13:05, 5 November 2007 (CST)
That sounds like a pretty good compromise. Given how there currently isn't a consensus on splitting the page, it might be worth getting other people's thoughts on this. While it technically puts the information on separate pages, it will show up on the same page, allowing anyone to edit using either method, which seems to resolve the main sticking points of the disagreement. Works for me. For those of you unfamiliar with transclusion, see here.--Moeen 20:07, 5 November 2007 (CST)

I had no idea what transclusion was. It sounds like if you split but transcluded, for example, 1996, then the entire content of the 1996 page would appear on the Timeline page exactly where it does now, and the appearance of the Timeline page would not be affected? If I'm understanding right, then the only remaining issue would be which choice (keep or split) is easiest to edit for the largest number of members. (And I suppose we could try splitting/transcluding and change it back if it makes editing harder). -- Vaevictis Asmadi 14:37, 6 November 2007 (CST)
That's right, and that was the idea. When I split off 1994 into a new article, it was transcluded back into the Timeline. But five hours later, Greg decided that it did make the editing too hard and changed it back.
Part of the problem (I guess) might have been that the [edit] button by the 1994 section was attached to that section of the Timeline, and not the new article, so all that appeared was:
Also I didn't add a link to the 1994 article in the timeline, which would have made it harder to navigate between them (an editor would have to input the new article in the search bar manually). So... to solve these problems (my own fault, I realise), we can split the section heading off into the new article, so that the [edit] button that appears in the Timeline does go to the desired section. We could also turn the section heading into a link as well, just to make it easier.
I'm hesitant to split off 1996 at this early stage because we're still learning things that happened in that year. If we're going to test it, let's go for 1994 again. Worth another try? -- Supermorff 09:54, 7 November 2007 (CST)
For what it's worth, I find the timeline section fairly unwieldy. -gdw
Unless there are last minute objections, I'm going to split off the 1994 section into a new article again, using the new methods I discussed above. After everyone has had a chance to familiarise themselves with the new setup, we can discuss how to proceed from there.
Are there any objections? -- Supermorff 07:51, 11 November 2007 (CST)


I can understand the reluctance to not put in all the dates and times withheld from "This Day...", and I'm NOT saying you should. BUT... a friendly warning... by not putting them in gradually as place-holders, you're setting yourselves up for a LOT of work in the not-too-distant-future. -gdw

We can always go back and retreive them from Ask Greg, can't we? If we retrieve them now I'd say to keep them on the talk page until there's something to say. It would look weird on the timeline itself. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 17:05, 7 November 2007 (CST)

  • I believe this all has something to do with the fact that Issues 7-9 are going to be non-linear. -Matt 7 November 2007
If it's withheld now because issues 7-9 haven't been released yet, then it won't be withheld the next time you do these days on "This Day...", right? In which case we can just add it in when it's revealed.--Moeen 20:53, 7 November 2007 (CST)
Well, that's assuming I'm still doing "This Day..." a year from now. Once I've gone through a whole calendar year, I may discontinue the feature. Still, I'm only suggesting place-holders to save you guys time later. If you don't mind doing a big chunk o' whatever as each issue comes out, then I've got no trouble with the current policy. - gdw

Transclusion complete

I've finished splitting off 1994 into a new article. As intended, the [edit] link now points directly to that new article, although I'm having trouble turning the heading into a link. I may have to add a "The main article for this section..." line to get the link working properly.

I understand it may be a bit of an adjustment getting used to the new system, but I think it will be worth it in the long run. If we collecively decide that it is too much trouble, then we can merge that section back into the main timeline at a later date. -- Supermorff 10:11, 12 November 2007 (CST)

Actually, the link to the new article might be working, but just not appearing on my screen because the system is taking some time to pass along the updates. Is it working properly for everyone else? -- Supermorff 10:18, 12 November 2007 (CST)

It appears to be working for me, though without knowing precicely what you intended I can't assure you it's working as you expected. From what I can see the Timeline looks the same except that the section heading for 1994 is now a link, and the addition of the boxes referring to other parts of the Timeline, which is a good idea.
When editing from the Timeline article, the introductory paragraphs for the 1994 article do not come up for edit, only the day entries originally taken from the Timeline article. The introductory paragraphs can only be edited from the 1994 article's edit button.
Overall, I think this looks good. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:30, 12 November 2007 (CST)
Well, it seems to be working alright. There appears to be a problem with the external links. For some reason, when I updated the link for November 12th on the 1994 page, when I take a look at the link on the Timeline page, it hasn't changed. Yet, when I attempt to edit the page using the [edit] link on the Timeline, the changes are there! How weird is that? I'm pretty sure it's not the browser cache, since I took a look at the page using different computers and cleared the cache, yet the result was the same. Does transclusion just not work well with external links?--Moeen 19:43, 12 November 2007 (CST)
Vaevictis, I intentionally wanted it so that the edit button only went to the Timeline section of the new article. If you wanted, we could try to rework the code so that you can edit the whole 1994 page from the Timeline, but it is currently working as I intended.
Moeen, I had a very similar problem. In fact it is a cache problem, but not on the browser. It is on the wiki software itself. It will take a while for the Timeline article to "catch up" to edits made in 1994. Not too long, I hope, but the sheer length of the Timeline article will make it longer. But it will catch up eventually. -- Supermorff 12:55, 13 November 2007 (CST)
Except it won't, because Greg B changed it back again.
Greg, is it really so impossible to use that we couldn't leave it for a week to see what consensus is? -- Supermorff 13:04, 13 November 2007 (CST)

Alright, Greg B. First of all, the votes weren't quite even, given that Greg W. did say that he found the page unwieldy. Second of all, the vote was over splitting, this is a transclusion. Both I and Supermorff asked if there were any objections to the method before the move was made. You didn't say anything, and then when its done, you revert the changes without even discussing or even bothering to get other people's opinions on this. This is definitely bordering on uncivil behavior, if it's not already uncivil. According to GargWiki:Policy you're not supposed to "ignore the positions and conclusions of others" and "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible," so you've already violated at least those two. Given that you didn't make any objections when we asked for them, it's wrong for you to then revert them without discussing. I don't want to start an edit war here, and that's not going to help anyone. So why don't we sick to policy and discuss this and if you really feel that this should not be done, we can vote on transcluding the other years this time. If enough people don't like it, then we can easily change it back. What's wrong with that?--Moeen 22:11, 13 November 2007 (CST)

First of all, I've been very busy lately, that's why I couldn't comment.. Second of all, honestly... I do not like this. I don't like splitting. I don't like transcluding. I tried to edit, and this I found unwieldy. There was no problem at all with the Timeline as it was before. Also, I don't think Greg officially voted, he can if he wants to. But, I'm sorry. This is too difficult work with. It's like the old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The Timeline was not broken. -- Greg Bishansky
I have to agree that transclusion is a fair compromise that'll make most everyone happy, but... I think it's too soon to change things. It'll be a pain to edit while the timeline is still growing, daily, thanks to Greg's "This Day in Gargoyles' Universe History" entries. Just imagine having to edit each year separately every time there's a new entry. Why make the editors go through that? I think you guys should wait until the timeline is complete (or as complete as it's going to get, considering the comics) before deciding whether or not we should change anything. Dtaina 23:01, 13 November 2007 (CST)
At the time no one objected, and it wouldn't have been that time consuming to do so. Whether it's broke or not seems to be a matter of opinion here. Okay, let's just try this method for a few more days and get everyones ideas about it. If people don't like it we can change it back easily. Personally, with all the info showing up on one page, it shouldn't be that much harder. But let's wait and see what other people make of it and come to a decision then. That should be fair to everyone.--Moeen 23:11, 13 November 2007 (CST)
I think three things, first of all: We should all discuss these things more before changing the page one way or another. Second, DTaina has a good point about TDIGUH. It is just as easy as before to edit directly from the timeline when we're only having changes to one year through the comics, but with This Day we're getting multiple year changes each day, and that is more difficult to edit with the transclusion.
Third. What is broken seems to be a matter of how hard it is to edit. Greg B. is having diffifculty editing the transcluded version. Some other editors were saying they have difficulty editing the combined version. Neither version is perfect and I don't think it's fair for anyone to claim "my version has no problems."
My own vote is that I find combined and transcluded equally easy to edit, so I no longer have a preference between the two versions. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 09:28, 14 November 2007 (CST)
Yeah, okay, it was a good point about TDIGUH. How much longer is it likely to last, does anyone know? -- Supermorff 14:04, 14 November 2007 (CST)
He said (see [withheld] above) that he might discontinue the feature after he's gone through one whole calendar year. Given that he started on April 7th, that would be April 6th of next year. But he didn't say for sure, and for all we know he might just keep going with it as long as Ask Greg is there.--Moeen 15:27, 14 November 2007 (CST)
If you want to talk "borderline uncivil", I think telling me that "it wouldn't have been too time consuming" is "borderline uncivil." Please, don't tell me what I do and don't have time for. I work very hard, I have very long hours at school. Usually 9am to 9:15pm (sometimes on weekends as well)... and that doesn't count getting there and back. You're not living my life. I'm very glad you seem to have the time, but I often don't.
And, I'm sorry, but I still hate the transclusion and see no purpose or need for it. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a class to get to. -- Greg Bishansky
Oh come on, I was up until 3AM last night grading quizzes for my calc class, barely made it to the morning seminar, and then had to teach for three hours in the afternoon. On top of that I have to prepare work for my other classes on a regular basis. I'm busy too, and I still manage it. The fact that you took the time to reply back shows that you do too when you want to make time for it. You also seem to have enough time to add the new events from "This Day.." at Ask Greg, on top of other edits. Is taking a few minutes of your time to type a response really that much to ask for?--Moeen 21:18, 14 November 2007 (CST)
Guys, come on. Let's leave our personal lives out of this. This isn't the right place for that kind of discussion. The problem at hand is what to do with the timeline, not who leads the busiest life or why someone didn't post a reply. Well, I think we should leave the timeline as it is. It's not unmanageable yet, and from what I understand, it is easier to edit. New entries are added every day; I believe that editing one page and one page only saves time. Why don't we worry about the whole transclusion/splitting debate after the TDGIUH entries are over, when the timeline truly becomes unmanageable? Dtaina 23:33, 14 November 2007 (CST)
Dtaina, currently the article is split and transcluded. Are you suggesting merging back into the article until TDIGUH is finished?
Just so everybody is clear, I'm fine with that idea, but I am going to take this opportunity to clarfiy my point on this: because of the limitations of my computer hardware and the amount of information to process, it takes me longer to edit the single, unsplit Timeline article than it would to update multiple smaller sections. If this was not the case, I would not be suggesting a split at all. At the moment, this is only an inconvenience and I would like to stop it from becoming an outright problem.
If you do merge back, I would like us to keep the 1994 article. If we decide, after TDIGUH is concluded, that a split is acceptable, then I don't really want to have to create the 1994 article for a third time. -- Supermorff 06:20, 15 November 2007 (CST)
Supermorff, I'm not doubting what you say about your own experience, but I am confused why you were unable to edit the Timeline one subsection at a time (for example, editing the Future section by itself) instead of the entire page. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 09:50, 16 November 2007 (CST)
I could have done that, but if I was editing only one section at a time it seemed worthwhile giving each section had its own article. Possibly that was a bit, well, selfish, but everyone that edits the Timeline usually does so section-by-section (although not necessarily all the time), and I assumed my problem was more widespread that it turned out to be. Does everybody else really have no lag when they edit the whole timeline? -- Supermorff 16:47, 16 November 2007 (CST)
Wait, wait, wait. The vote was an even deadlock, and you split it anyway? -- Greg B
The vote on a split was at a deadlock. That idea would not have shown any info from the split off years on the Timeline. We decided to go for a transclusion, which technically involving a split is not the same thing and has the benefit of showing all the information on the Timeline page.--Moeen 10:24, 15 November 2007 (CST)

  • Lag or not. Easy to update or not. To me that isn't the issue. To me, working out something new with the Timeline is a neccesity for stylistic reasons. Right now, its getting to be a mess, and its only gonna get worse. There are just so many dates all on this long list. Maybe we just need to break it up into seperate periods better, but I think ultimately we are gonna need to split it into seperate pages, each linked to the next like the episodes are in order. Then on the Timeline page itself, it'll show an overview of how the timeline has been broken down into seperate pages and naturally, links to each page. Does this create a little more work to update when new dates are released. Maybe. But when TDIGUH ends, we most likely will be getting dates all from one year or period at a time anyway, so we won't usually need to update several different timeline period pages at once. Anyway, thats my say on this, I'll leave it up to the majority, but something will need to be done. I think anyone who thinks the timeline will just go on as is forever is blind. Its a mess and its getting worse. --Matt 16 November 2007
Ahem. I am not blind, and I do not think the Timeline is a mess at all. If any split is going to happen, I vastly prefer it transcluded instead of turning the original page into an outline of links. I want the option of seeing it all together if I want to. I oppose any split that does not transclude. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 10:29, 17 November 2007 (CST)
Okay, I'm not doing an about-turn here. I still believe that the Timeline needs a split or a restructure or something to make it friendlier to users who haven't been looking at it every day for so many months. And I think transclusion is probably preferable, because then users have the choice as to whether they want to look at the information all together or on their separate pages. But...
Does anyone think this has to be done now? At the time I first split the page and this extended discussion began, I was working under the impression that TDIGUH would continue indefinitely. Since that doesn't seem to be the case, I am... willing... to remerge the article and postpone a more permanent decision until TDIGUH is concluded (whenever that happens to be).
1994 can be turned into a redirect as long as it is not outright deleted. Those inclusion tags are tricky blighters. -- Supermorff 13:06, 17 November 2007 (CST)
Well, first of all, we don't know what the situation with "This Day..." is in terms of it continuing indefinitely or not. Greg W. said he might discontinue it after going through a whole calendar year, and so we won't know what the case will be until April of next year, which is still months away. Also, since there isn't quite as much happening in 1994 as there is in say 1995 and 1996, leaving 1994 as it is now shouldn't be much of a problem. What we could do, is either leave the page as it is, and then vote on transcluding 1995 and 1996 in April, or vote soon on whether we want to keep going with this method of transcluding the major years. Either way, we need to vote to see if there's a majority one way or another.--Moeen 13:32, 17 November 2007 (CST)

New format

Probably I should not be bringing up yet another issue while the debate about splitting/transclusion is still ongoing, but I recently found some interesting wiki markup that we could possibly use on the Timeline. As follows:

;November 14th : Supermorff makes a suggestion.

will give:

November 14th 
Supermorff makes a suggestion.

Does anyone think this might be useful? -- Supermorff 07:57, 14 November 2007 (CST)

Vote on Transclusion

Okay, to keep going back and forth here, we're going to decide by vote whether or not we keep with the transclusions or go back to everything on one page. Hopefully this time we'll actually get a majority, so here goes. Vote Transclude if you prefer to have some info transcluded, or Revert if you wish to put the timeline back into the old format without any transclusions. I'll give it one week, like last time.--Moeen 14:03, 18 November 2007 (CST)

  • Transclude I think it's a fair compromise between those of us who have trouble editing the larger versions and those of us who want to see all the information on one page.--Moeen 14:03, 18 November 2007 (CST)
  • Transclude I think it's the first step in a project we are inevitably going to have to take on. Easier to start now. --Matt 15:02, 18 November 2007 (CST)
  • Revert, there is no need for this. In fact,the vote was a split and your side cheated by doing it anyway. If you change it again before the vote is final, then I will hit the Protect tab. Seriously, you don't install a new President before the vote and then have an election. -- Greg Bishansky
  • Revert Transclusion, splitting... we'll still have to go to several pages just to edit the timeline every day. As a webmaster myself, I can tell you how annoying and time-consuming that is. I vote we revert the changes and wait until the TDIGUH entries are over before deciding whether or not to change anything. Dtaina 16:18, 18 November 2007 (CST)
  • Revert Based upon what I've read, it only seems to be lagging for one person. And it also sounds like one of those things that's making more problems now and will make problems later as TDIGUH expands. It just seems easier to deal with it down the road, see what happens after the TDIGUH entries are added. Harvester of Eyes
  • I vote Revert until TDIGUH completes a full calendar year (at which point, even if it continues, there will be fewer entries to add), and then my vote will change to Transclude. -- Supermorff 03:43, 19 November 2007 (CST)

Alright, it's been over a week, so I'll close voting on this one. This time we do have a majority, and it's in favor of maintaining the status quo, so Revert it is, at least for the time being. The topic can be brought up again if someone wishes to do so, at which point we can have a vote again if necessary. For this topic, the best next such time will be early April 2008, at which point Greg W. will have gone through an entire calendar year with "This Day..." entries, and will (presumably) have decided whether he wishes to continue the feature.--Moeen 00:01, 26 November 2007 (CST)

Future vs. Recorded History

Now that a Timedancer story is scheduled for mid-2008, I think we need to make sure we all agree how the Future and Recorded History sections will work.

Currently, this section begins with this explanatory note: "Because of the ten-year gap between the end of Season Two and the beginning of the SLG comics, the most recent issue of the main comic book takes place in late 1996. Therefore, this section of the timeline begins with 1996." so that first-time viewers are not confused by the dissonance between the Gargverse future and the real world future.

When "The Gate" comes out, 995 may become the "present" in the main comic for a few issues. Even now, the ongoing framing story in Bad Guys is apparently set sometime in 1997. What is present (part of the Recorded History section) and what is Future?

I propose that for the purposes of this Timeline, that Recorded History only run up to the "present" as depicted in the main continuity of the flagship comic. Although the first Timedancer adventure will be in the flagship comic, everything after 995 will remain within Recorded History, not Future. Likewise, late 1997 won't become Recorded History until the main comic catches up with the Bad Guys framing story.

In other words, I propose that when "The Gate" starts, that the moment Brooklyn disappears and returns remains as the "present" (Recorded History), and that if we see him skip ahead to 2198 or whatever, that those events be recorded in the Future section. Does that make any sense? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 12:30, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Ugh. This is messy and really gets right back to the disorganization inherent in the current Timeline, IMHO. Could we just have the section changed to be called "After 1996" or "After 1997"? Then we don't need to worry about what is future at all, or even what qualifies for that name. Even people new to the series/site can understand what "After 1996" means, they don't need to know that the future is currently in the past. Ugh. --Matt 12:37, 27 December 2007 (CST)
I propose that we scrap both sections, that is we restructure the timeline so that instead of our current system:
  • Dim Mists of Time
  • Recorded History
    • Before 1994
    • 1994
    • 1995
    • 1996
  • The Future
we use something more like this:
  • Dim Mists of Time
  • Before 994
  • 994-1994
  • 1994
  • 1995
  • 1996
  • 1997-2197
  • 2198 onwards
The exact sections can be changed, but what do you think? -- Supermorff 12:39, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Sigh. This discussion has no bearing at all on splitting the timeline. You can split off 1994 but we still need to decide what is and isn't future. Are we going to leave an "after 1996" section even when the main comic is telling stories set in 1999? Even if we do away with Future entirely and put every dated event into Recorded History, we need to deal with the confusingly mixed up grammatical tenses used for CiT information in the rest of the wiki.
Every problem is not caused by some horrible flaw in the Timeline. Time travel is messy in itself, and the confusion is entirely due to time-travel. Honestly, I'm getting a bit annoyed by the constant going on about splitting when it is not April yet. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 12:41, 27 December 2007 (CST)

I think Supermorff's idea solves the problem. It is a great idea and I love it. It'll solve several Timeline problems at once. Cool. --Matt 12:43, 27 December 2007 (CST) Sorry, Vaevictis. You are right about the tense situtation. That is a problem we need to address across the whole Wiki. It doesn't just affect the Timeline, but nearly every entry. Supermorff's idea solves some of the timeline issues, but you are right about needing to make a decision on the tenses, sorry I didn't follow what you were saying before. --Matt 12:45, 27 December 2007 (CST)

It's OK Matt.
I prefer that we keep a Future section to provide a frame of reference for the wiki-wide grammar issue. But if we scrap Future, I propose that we still maintain the distinction between Dim Mists (undated past) and Recorded History (dated events) but rename it Recorded Time or some such. I assume SLG will publish a #13 and that it will be set after Brooklyn's return, in the "present" continuity, and that Timedancer if it continues thereafter, will be a separate comic book. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 12:51, 27 December 2007 (CST)

So, what you are saying is that the "present" will be defined as whatever point the flagship Gargoyles series is at and events in the past and future have corresponding tenses? So though Bad Guys or Timedancer or 2198 or Dark Ages could be all over the map, entries dealing with them and things in them are tensed according to wherever Gargoyles is at the time? --Matt 12:59, 27 December 2007 (CST)

I think that would be a good idea, yes. Were it not for the grammar issue, we could just merge Future and Recorded History, but I have the feeling that Greg Weisman will continue to flashback, flash-farward, time-travel, and write non-linear stories as long as he makes Gargoyles, and that will just be confusing. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 13:17, 27 December 2007 (CST)

There is no "The Present". We jot down dates as we receive dates, be they from the comic or from Greg Weisman himself. Or whatever our best estimates are until Greg clarifies.

Since we'll be seeing a bit of 997, that will be 997. Not the present. 1997 was just given a section. We are rapidly getting there in the main book, and are already there in "Bad Guys" and received two dates in TDIGUH.

Greg, I think you are missing the same point I did. Vaevictis isn't so much concerned with what is the present, but rather what is and isn't written in the present tense. This goes for the timeline and all other articles. The question here is: What gets written in present tense, past tense and future tense? --Matt 14:01, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Honestly, I think each entry should be written in past tense as far as grammar goes. But that's just me.
Greg, I fail to see why you decided to change the Timeline without waiting for the discussion to conclude. What happened to giving the rest of us any say in the matter? The comic is not in 1997. The main story of Bad Guys took place in 1996 as described by Greg W. The Rock takes place in 1996. Why are you rearranging everything without asking? You didn't like it when the Timeline was split when you felt the vote wasn't concluded. So please don't change the structure of the Timeline when we've barely started this discussion. Let people have a chance to talk about it. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 14:53, 27 December 2007 (CST)
I am concerned what is "present", for the whole Wiki, including this Timeline. Greg B. has stated his opinion that present and future do not exist, but others are entitled to their own opinions as well, and we should have a discussion. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 14:55, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Um, we are already in 1997. The Redemption Squad's helicopter blowing up took place in 1997. We have TIGUH entries covering 1997. We are rapidly approaching 1997 in the main book, but again, as I said, we have canon material in 1997 - Greg B
The Bad Guys framing story is a flash-farward completely outside the continuity of The Rock, which obviously takes place in 1996. The dates are printed right there in the comic. If Brooklyn goes to 2198, does 2198 temporarily become "present"? If he goes to 997, does 997 become "present" until he returns? The Gathellus stories take place during the Exodus, should that be "present" instead? I don't want the present and the tenses in the entire Wiki, to jump around every single time Greg W. writes a flashback or a time-travel story. I don't want multiple entire years moved into and out of the Future section every time a flash-farward or time-travel story gets published. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:01, 27 December 2007 (CST)
No, 997 never becomes the present. 2198 stays 2198. I have no idea what you are talking about. - Greg B
Just because there was a brief flash-farward to 1997 in Bad Guys, suddenly 1997 becomes "present" and you changed the Timeline. Even though The Rock is explicitly still set in 1996, and Greg W. told us that the rest of Bad Guys is set in 1996. Why is a temporary, completely-out-of-continuity flash-farward to 1997, different from a flash-farward taking place in 2198? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:06, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Um, so are you saying that what we saw did not take place? That IS in continuity. Marvel's Gargoyles comic, The Goliath Chronicles and Disney Adventures are what's not in continuity. And as I recall Greg saying, we'll see more of that 1997 adventure as well as the issues progress. We are getting TWO stories at the same time. We are in 1997. And if we get a flash forward to 2198, then 2198 will get it's own section there. This is not complicated. --Greg B
I'm saying it was the future. It will happen AFTER The Rock. I'm saying The Rock takes place in 1996. Go look at your copy. I promise most of the timestamps are not for 1997. Go read it again, if you think it takes place in 1997. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:24, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Wow, I think you're really splitting hairs here. Look, this idea of yours is troublesome because past, present and future are always changing. You can't define them, especially not in Gargoyles where time travel is the norm and with a ten-year gap to top it all off. Technically, everything in the comics takes place in the past for the simple reason that the year in the world we live in is 2007, not 1996 or 1997. So, instead of splitting hairs, and trying to define something that is undefinable, just write all the entries in the past tense and be done with it. Maybe all the entries under Gargoyles 2198, and everything that hasn't happened yet and is canon-in-training, could be written in the future tense. So what's the problem? D Taina 15:48, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Use the real world present date as the point of reference? That is a possibility.
The "problem" is simply that we haven't discussed this yet. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:57, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Okay, think about the future. What about a year from now? Ten years from now? We want the GargWiki to be around that long, and using a point of reference is troublesome because it'll date the articles. Then you'll have to go back and change all the tenses just to keep everything current. It just isn't going to work. We want the site to be accesible throughout the years. That's why I don't want to define the past, present and future. Just write everything in the past tense and the site won't be dated years from now. D Taina 16:05, 27 December 2007 (CST)
I didn't propose that we have a fixed date that never ever changes. I proposed that the current year of the flagship comic be considered present, as it has been until now. We already have to change many parts of the Wiki every time that some CiT information becomes canon. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:08, 27 December 2007 (CST)

You guys are getting off topic. Vaevictis, I understand why Greg B has modified the page as he has. It is fine, I think. I agree with him also that all entries, including the Timeline should be written as past tense. It's simple and easy and it'll look good and consistent.
And you're perfectly OK with his demonstrated intention to make the point of reference jump around chaotically, every time we read a flash-farward? How does that make any sense? Out of all the ideas floated so far, Greg B.'s idea to make 2198 the "present" is the worst, in my opinion. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:30, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Now, back to what Supermorff and I were talking about, I'd like to modify the Timeline as Supermorff outlined above (+adding a seperate year for 1997 as Greg B has done). --Matt 15:11, 27 December 2007 (CST)
We are having a discussion. That means that nobody gets to change the entire structure of the Timeline without asking. Nobody gets to declare "this is what we will do from now on" as if only their opinion mattered. I don't care for the way that Greg B., in particular, has decided that only he has the right to decide how the Timeline will be written. I disagree with this proposal, I disagree with making the Timeline skip around every time there's a flash-farward, and I have a right to express my opinion. Furthermore, we can't implement Supermorff's idea either, without giving EVERYBODY in this Wiki a chance to give their opinion. Why does everybody else in this community suddenly not rate? What is the deal with starting these revert wars without letting anybody even see the discussion? I should have known that if I brought this up, it would be a repeat of the splitting fiasco. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:24, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Geez, Vaevictis, calm down. Listen, I don't think Greg B or anyone should get to do major modifications to pages without some sort of majority consent, and maybe he should've waited on the 1997 thing, but I hardly consider it a major modification. Secondly, of course you and everyone has the right to express their opinion, so please express it. I don't know what you are talking about with this jumping around thing at all. If the Timeline is modified such that there is no future section, only more years, and the entire Wiki is written in past tense then there IS no jumping around possible. What are you talkng about? Finally, I was only proposing that we continue talking about reformating the Timeline, I did not just go do it or anything. I agree there needs to be a consensus, that is why I said "I think we should do this..." and waited for responses. I have not touched the Timeline at all today. Stop taking everything personally, alright. We are all trying to make this the best site we can. --Matt 15:36, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Matt, I am sorry I assumed you were planning to change the timeline without a discussion. I should have given you the benefit of the doubt.
Greg B. just said "And if we get a flash forward to 2198, then 2198 will get it's own section there." That is what I mean by jumping around. Adding entire years to the Recorded History, or subtracting entire years from it, every single time there's a flash-farward or flash-back. He's stated he plans to do this. He already did do it because of a flash-farward in Bad Guys. I think it is a terrible plan. "The Rock" takes place in 1996. This is a fact. Just because a canon event takes place in 1997, doesn't mean it needs to be in the History section. The Future section doesn't have to be reserved exclusively for CiT. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 15:48, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Um, did you see a 994 section? How about a 1057? I misspoke there, but the fact is that we are still coming up on 1997 and we are coming up fast. Hell, we are already there, and that little section was more than just a flash forward, expect to see more of it in #2. -- Greg B

We add years all the time because of TDIGUH. I don't see why that is a big deal at all. And hopefully, soon enough no "Recorded History" section will exist, just as Greg has already removed the "Future" section. These are troublesome and it soounds like everyone agrees to lose them. Soon all we'll have is years and we'll talk in past tense and there won't be any problems. --Matt 15:54, 27 December 2007 (CST)

EXCUSE ME? Why is Greg B. making vast, huge changes to the structure of the entire Timeline WITHOUT ASKING ANYBODY?? This is a Wiki, Greg. You do not own it. Why the heck are you not allowing anybody to discuss this for even one day? You got angry when others split the Timeline without asking? And no Matt, "everybody" does not agree. Unless by "everybody" you only mean you and Greg. I guess that my opinion and the opinions of every other member who hasn't been given even one day to give their opinion, don't matter? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:00, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Why are you shouting. Calm down. -- Greg B
Why are you changing everything without asking or allowing anybody else to have any say? Why do the rest of us suddenly not count? Did you forget that this is a WIKI? -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:06, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Vaevictis, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but you need to calm down. We do not hold a Town Hall Meeting each time someone wants to make a change. Greg B made a small change that myself and Supermorff agreed with. It was not a major change and there were three administraters approving it. This is a Wiki. If a bunch of people don't like, they can voice that opinion and maybe it'll be changed back, but since the change Dtaina seems to have agreed as well (sorry if I am misinterpreting you Dtaina). So calm down. Maybe we should adjourn on this topic for a day or two so that you can collect yourself and your thoughts. --Matt 16:07, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Oh, I definitely agree with you guys on this. D Taina 16:09, 27 December 2007 (CST)
If you don't mean to be disrespectful, why have you declared that I don't have a right to have any say in this? Eliminating, merging, and moving entire sections of the Timeline is not minor. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:10, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Vaevictis, why are you taking this personally? D Taina 16:13, 27 December 2007 (CST)
Because you are all being unbelievably hurtful, arrogant, and insulting? Because you told me that you will change it no matter what and nobody else is allowed to have an opinion? I started this discussion to help the wiki. Now I feel you all think I'm worthless, and along with me every one else in this community who doesn't happen to have logged in to give their opinion.

You do have a right, of course you do, I've said as much today. The thing is you are clearly outvoted here. 4 to 1. Could that change if others come in and take your side, sure, but that has not happened yet. This is similiar to what happened over the Talk:Boudicca incident. You were outvoted and continued to act like being outvoted was a personal attack. It isn't. I respect your opinions, sometimes I agree with them (hell I agreed with you about something else earlier today!), sometimes not. And whenever I don't agree with you you decide that that is an attack. That isn't fair to me and I don't appreciate it. --Matt 16:18, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Sorry, if you read the Boudicca talk page, you'll notice I explicitly said multiple times that the majority opinion should be taken. There is a difference between a majority opinion, in which everybody is allowed to speak, and Greg B. just changing everything without asking anybody at all. And all I said was "wait, we should all discuss this and agree first." What is wrong with discussing these things a little? And yes, something is clearly personal if I'm hurt so much that I'm sitting here in tears. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:22, 27 December 2007 (CST)
"Because you are all being unbelievably hurtful, arrogant, and insulting? Because you told me that you will change it no matter what and nobody else is allowed to have an opinion?" Nobody has said that, Vaevictis. You're not being attacked and you're not a victim. I'm sorry, but the majority has spoken. You should take some time to calm down and think this over. D Taina

Vaevictis, I think I speak for all of us when I say that we appreciate your contributions to the Wiki and we appreciate your opinions and good ideas as well. I also think I speak for all of us when I say that there has been times when all of us have been out-voted on things. That is the nature of the Wiki. You cannot take that personally and claim it is an attack. I understand the changes today were made quickly, but since there was a large majority, this did not seem to be a problem. If the consensus on this issue swings the other way it can easily be changed back. My point is that you need to calm down. Getting emotional over this is not worth it. We all need to act proffesionally and with maturity. This is not grade school. We are adults. And this is just an entertaining website that we all want to make better. You are valued here, but if you cannot learn to take being out-voted in stride, maybe you should take some time off from editing the Wiki. Notice I am not telling you to leave or even declaring that I want you to leave. Honestly, I want you to stay. But if working on this site continues to cause you these emotional breakdowns, then maybe working on this site is not the thing for you. I'm sorry we upset you, it was never our intent. --Matt 16:37, 27 December 2007 (CST)

I don't feel "being outvoted is a personal attack" at all. I never said that. I feel that one person changing everything, and then declaring that they will continue to change it without discussion with anyone, is unfair. Not allowing any discussion is disrespectful and very hurtful. I am very hurt. I am not hurt that I am currently outvoted. I never said that. I am hurt because Greg B. made a huge change without asking anybody, and when I said "wait, we should discuss this" you told me that we should not discuss it. I don't think only my opinion matters. I never said that. I think we should discuss before making huge changes. And when somebody does voice an objection, they shouldn't be told that the decision has been made, done, over with. -- Vaevictis Asmadi 16:44, 27 December 2007 (CST)

Right, Vaevictis, clearly there was NO discussion. Clearly your opinion was disregarded. Clearly we told you that all decisions are final. Do you even read our posts? Please. I'm done. You need to figure out why you are hurt and figure out what you are gonna do about it. These silly guilt trips and childish quibbles are beyond annoying to me. I won't play your game anymore. --Matt 16:46, 27 December 2007 (CST)

I am not playing a "Childish Game". I am expressing what I thought you said. I am trying to say that we should have a discussion. Instead you just call me a child and laugh at me, so I will leave.
I'm sorry, but Matt's right. You're throwing a temper tantrum. Just take some time off the site and calm down. You're making a huge deal out of nothing. D Taina 16:54, 27 December 2007 (CST)
So, should we go ahead and implement the changes to the Timeline that Supermorff outlined above? A lot of the page also needs to be put in past tense, but I think I'm gonna end up spending a lot of time on this project assuming it gets the go ahead... -- Matt 17:14, 27 December 2007 (CST)
I think Supermorff's idea is great. You guys have my vote. D Taina 17:18, 27 December 2007 (CST)


What just happened here? I've just read through the whole previous discussion, and I'm confused. At some point a useful discussion degenerated into an argument. I can only say that I hope Vaevictis hasn't gone forever, and that everybody should be mindful to assume good faith from their fellow users. In particular, Harvester of Eyes, I feel your comment may have been uncalled for, and I would appreciate it if you would retract it. Thank you.

Now, while the discussion is not yet resolved, I insist that the argument ends here.

I am going to try and redirect this discussion back to the point at hand. Vaevictis Asmadi seems to believe that we need an "established present" on the Timelime, before which everything is written in past tense and after which everything is written in future tense (if I am wrong about this, please correct me). This is a sensible assertion, considering that elsewhere in the wiki we used both past and future tense, and also considering that we have previously used "Recorded History" and "Future" sections in the Timeline.

However, I personally do not agree that the Timeline needs an "established present". The entire Timeline is written in present tense, and always has been, and I believe this is the optimal solution. Other articles on the wiki may be a different matter, but not every article needs to have the same "established present", and the Timeline does not need an "established present" at all. However, the use of present tense throughout, coupled with the use of a "Future" section, has caused a bit of confusion. For this reason, I suggested that the "Future" section be removed and that we implement a different structure in which past, present and future are all considered the same. This has been implemented, but only in part, because not all sections are yet on equal levels.

Some users have suggested that we not use an "established present", but that we write everything in past tense. This idea seems bizarre to me, but if the consensus is for this suggestion then I will not object further.

My main points again: we have a system that works. Not every article on the wiki need necessarily use the same "established present" - the Timeline does not need one at all. I think we should leave the Timeline in present tense throughout (past, present and future, however they are defined) and continue to restructure as I have suggested previously.

I welcome comments, suggestions for improvement, or disagreements. -- Supermorff 13:00, 28 December 2007 (CST)

I completely agree. -- Greg B
Oh yeah, I welcome agreements too. They're tops. -- Supermorff 13:08, 28 December 2007 (CST)

Yes. Leave the Timeline all in present tense and perhaps the articles should be in past tense? I dunno. -- Matt 13:09, 28 December 2007 (CST)

I second Supermorff. After going over the previous discussion, I just wondered "what on earth happened here?" It looks like what should've been a discussion about whether or not there should be an "established present" just degenerated. Granted I think VA was overreacting, but responding by being dismissive doesn't help at all. Harvester of Eyes's comment in particular was uncivil if not downright insulting and definitely violates GargWiki:Policy#Civility_and_etiquette. And I think he should apologize to VA for that.
Also, VA has a point: you guys went ahead with the changes before the discussion we even over. Greg B., I recall that you threatened to protect the Timeline page against further changes if the transclusion that was in place wasn't reverted before the vote, yet you seemed to have no reservations about making changes when you were in favor of them here. Looks to me like double standards. Maybe some of you didn't feel that the changes warranted a vote, but since someone clearly felt they did the page should have been left as it was until the discussion was over. In any case, if it's not possible to resolve the discussion, we can always vote on the issue if necessary. That's the whole point of the voting system.
Sigh I hope VA hasn't quit completely, but in the future let's try to keep discussions from degenerating like this.
Personally, I don't feel that the Gargoyles Universe has an "established present" with the spin-offs and all, and Supermorff's original suggestion makes more sense, but that's just my opinion.--Moeen 13:43, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Yeah, I also think Vaevictis was overreacting, but maybe I contributed to making the situation worse. If I did, then I apologize.
Back to the topic at hand... I like the idea of the timeline being in present tense. That's how Greg has it and I think it's a great idea. But I also think the articles should be in the past tense because, well, I think past tense is easier to read and write. But that's just me. As for the Gargoyles 2198 articles, I think having those in the past tense would be pretty weird, so... maybe those could be in the future tense. Just my two cents. D Taina 13:57, 28 December 2007 (CST)
I think the timeline should be in present tense as well. Besides the fact that Greg W. writes the events in present tense, the timeline describes events at the time they happened, so it makes sense to use present tense there. As for the articles, we should be consistent. If we've used past tense for all of them so far then I think we should continue to use past tense. Also, historical present is sometimes awkward in English. I think we should continue to use past tense even for the 2198 articles because if comics do come out for those, then "they happened" in the sense that it's canon. Plus, Timedancer will destroy any sense of past, present or future. I think the problem is really the CIT stuff. Do we write those in past tense, or future since it's subject to change? I'd say, make canon material past tense and CIT future tense.--Moeen 16:43, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Good point about Gargoyles 2198. I hadn't thought of that. So then all the entries should be in the past tense. I'm not sure about CIT, either... Suggestions, anyone? D Taina 18:31, 28 December 2007 (CST)

I agree with all of that (Timeline in present tense, articles in past tense) until you get to the CIT part. In most cases, CIT stuff is blended in with canon information, sometimes in mid sentence. Having two different tenses in the same sentence, paragraph or section would be a mess. I think CIT stuff needs to be in past tense as well. -- Matt 16:46, 28 December 2007 (CST)

There's a distinction to draw between CIT information from a characters background and plot ideas that have yet to occur. Saying that "Goliath and Elisa will adopt a child in the future" is fine, but saying "Elisa will go to college at Columbia, then she joined the police force" is beyond dumb. So some CIT info ca be in future tense (and heck, why not?), but clearly not all of it. Everything else being past tense is fine by me.
Frankly, if it looks good on the page, then go with it. It'll be obvious pretty quickly what works and what doesn't. -- Supermorff 21:12, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Oh, one more thing. For a character in, say Bad Guys, the "future" plot ideas could occur any time from 1997 onwards. For a character in 2198, the "future" plot ideas can only occur after March 21st 2198. For a character in Dark Ages, whenever that series is finally released, the "future" plot ideas can occur even before 994 ("Hudson's mate will die before the Wyvern Massacre", etc.).
Although this could be a preferable solution, it could confuse a few people, especially newcomers that may expect the wiki to have an internally consistent sense of "the present". Always gotta think about those newcomers. -- Supermorff 21:20, 28 December 2007 (CST)

Yikes, this is giving me a headache, but we gotta work it out. With all the stuff happening more or less in the "present day" it makes sense that CIT info from the past is put in past tense and CIT info about the future is put in future tense. The problem comes when/if Dark Ages and 2198 (and maybe New Olympians) gets made. In Dark Ages, the future may still be the past and in 2198 (and maybe New Olympians) the past may be in the future... from our "present day" anyway. So, how are we gonna fix this? Here is my thought: Dark Ages, 2198 and New Olympians have not been made yet, they may never be, so lets not worry about them right now. All of the series on the table (Gargoyles, Bad Guys, Pendragon and Timedancer), happen more or less in the "present day". I know what you are saying about Timedancer, it'll be all over the place, but something I've noticed is that ever since the comics have started coming out, new CIT info is rarely getting mentioned by Greg. I doubt it'll be much of a problem. We may not have much more CIT info to worry about. So with Timedancer I'd say we'll just have to take everything on a case by case basis. So, for now lets say past CIT in past tense, future CIT in future tense, Timeline in present tense and all canon history in past tense. Agreed? -- Matt 21:56, 28 December 2007 (CST)

Yup. -- Supermorff 22:20, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Works for me! D Taina 22:23, 28 December 2007 (CST)
Well, if we all agree with this, can we codify it somewhere in the Wiki for reasons of clarity and guidance? Something like this:
  • Canon History - Past Tense
  • Past CIT - Past Tense
  • Future CIT - Future Tense
  • Timeline - Present Tense

--Matt 08:50, 29 December 2007 (CST)

I like the plan for the timeline. As far as what I said is concerned, I hate to see adults get emotional over trivial things, or for no apparent reason (at least I'm assuming that VA is old enough to be tried as one). I also haven't thrown a temper tantrum since I was thirteen. To be honest, my words were motivated by disgust. But I still could have been more responsible and not thrown gasoline into an already volatile situation. So what I did was a bit immature. I'll erase it from the Talk Section in the interests of diplomacy, since the general consensus is everyone wants to move past this. You owe me a steak, Supermorff. ( ; --Harvester of Eyes 09:47, 29 December 2007 (CST)

Maybe we should make a page, e.g. at GargWiki:Manual of style, which describes things like this. We could set out the preferred method of citations, various standard formats we've come to use, use of CIT templates, naming conventions, etc. It wouldn't have to be very big. -- Supermorff 12:39, 29 December 2007 (CST)
Agreed. -- Matt 17:11, 29 December 2007 (CST)
Sorry for the somewhat late response (holidays and all). Matt's codification works for me. A Manual of Style is also a good idea.--Moeen 02:51, 1 January 2008 (CST)

New Timeline Ideas

I haven't been following the timeline discussion all that closely, but I have picked up that some people find it large and unwieldy and maybe not as useful as it could be. I'm not going to suggest or contest any changes with the timeline as is. But poking around online, I did find and open source program called Timeline, which lets you put a graphical interface timeline on your site. There's a JFK assassination timeline on the site to show you how it works. I'm not sure that it would solve all of the issues that we have with the current timeline and I definitely don't think it should replace the current timeline, at least not before it's been tested a bit. But I think it's worth investigating and, if people like the idea, we could make a second version of the timeline with this widget, either hosted here or offsite, and see if we find it more or equally useful. Thoughts? -- Demonskrye 12:57, 7 January 2008 (CST)

Interesting idea, and I don't have a problem trying it next to our existing timeline. However, I had trouble scrolling with any speed, and I couldn't find a way to simply skip ahead to a section I wanted to look at. Also, all of the entries on the JFK timeline seem fairly short and to the point, whereas we have fairly large entries for each day.
I think that particular widget would be most useful for sorting out a timeline in which a lot of things happened at the same time. Our timeline is mostly linear. It would be quite interesting to see the widget implemented on a smaller scale, for example covering the events of "The Rock", "Rock & Roll" and "Rock of Ages". Just a thought. -- Supermorff 14:06, 7 January 2008 (CST)
I see what you mean. Finding this took me all of five minutes, if even, so I'm not particularly attached to the idea of using it. But I do think we should consider looking for alternate ways to handle the timeline in addition to what we have now. Aside from greater ease of use, which we can discuss further, a feature that I think would be cool, if possible, is a way to categorize events so that they're easily recognized and possibly so you can choose to only see certain types of events. For example, maybe you'd be able to look at only canon events if you wanted to, or compare just the Manhattan clan's timeline with the events or 'Timedancer", or look at the history of the London clan as compared to real world events. Of course, I would have no clue how to do this, but it would be pretty cool if we could. -- Demonskrye 11:52, 8 January 2008 (CST)

I altered the name of this section to more accurately reflect the discussion. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find any more programs yet that would allow use to create a timeline for a website. If anyone locates something, please feel free to mention it. For now, though, I think we should discuss what we need to have and what we would like to have in a new version of the timeline in hopes that we can either find a program that meets that criteria or figure out how to make it from the ground up. I think that if we do manage to create a new timeline, we should keep the old one around at least until we can see if everyone likes the new one and find it easier to use.

I think what's absolutely necessary for any new timeline is that it be at least as useable as the current one. So you should be able to jump to specific dates and time periods easily. There should also be a differentiation between canon, canon-in-training, and (possibly) real world events. What I'd like to see is something like what I mentioned above where events could be grouped and user could chose which timelines they did and didn't want to see. Imagine a timeline, and underneath it, a whole bunch of little boxes labeled for things like "Manhattan Clan", "Demona", "London Clan", "Real World History", and so on, which you can check either on or off. So if somebody wanted to just see what real world events happened at what points in Demona's lifetime, they could just check the "Real World History" and "Demona" checkboxes and nothing else. Another cool feature (which Timeline does employ) would be pop-up windows that show more detail about an event. Rather than having what could amount to a paragraph of information right on the timeline, we could have a simple summary like "Demona betrays Macbeth" or "Magus casts his spell on the gargoyles". Mouse over the entry or click on it and a window pops up with the full explanation of the event. Graphics on the timeline would be nice as well, though certainly not necessary.

Anyone else have ideas? -- Demonskrye 10:31, 10 January 2008 (CST)

Shari's birth year

What's the source for Shari's birth year? Is it actually canon-in-training, or a guess or what? -- Supermorff 13:32, 1 February 2008 (CST)

At Ask Greg he described her as being 18 in 1996. I'm guessing the birth year was calculated back from that. Phil 14:36, 1 February 2008 (CST)

Okay then, I suppose I can see the logic in that. Although since that was a visual description specifically for an artist to work from, I think that might be giving less away than it seems. She may only look 18. Also, even if she is 18 in 1996, she could well have been born in late 1977. I'm not really worried about it, and I'm not really saying we should remove the comment, I'm just saying that there are some factors to consider first. -- Supermorff 14:59, 1 February 2008 (CST)

Individual Timelines Proposal

OK, between format and the sheer amount of information we have, the timeline is still kind of unwieldy. My thinking right now is that no matter what we do, the timeline is going to be big and possibly tough to navigate. But I think there may be a way to give readers of the wiki easier access to some of the dates they might want to know. I propose we create some additional smaller timelines relating to individual characters and events. For example, a Demona timeline, a Manhattan clan timeline, a timeline for issues #7-#9. These wouldn't be intended to replace the main timeline, but to help enhance it. I'm thinking of something along the lines of what we have on the Avalon World Tour page, but with a little more detail and on separate pages from the articles. We would link to the timelines from both the relevant pages and from the Timline page so people who might want to see important dates for just the Manhattan Clan can easily do so. These will also be somewhat streamlined timelines, covering only the most important events relating to each subject. For example, the Demona timeline may not cover the events of Long Way to Morning, but would definitely cover the events of The Mirror. Does this seem like a worthwhile idea? -- Demonskrye 08:21, 31 March 2008 (CDT)

This idea seems like it would help in cases when users know about a particular event and want to know what date it happened on. But I don't know how much it would help. First thing I'd like to point out, though, is that if a user knows about a particular event then the chances are very good that the event will have appeared in canon. There would be no need to include any CIT information. Birth/hatching dates would be tricky (since obviously characters in canon must have been born/hatched at some time), and we could probably decide to include them or not include them.
This idea needs a lot of thought before we try to implement it. How would we decide what gets included on each page? Would we move information away from the original Timeline? How would we link to the new pages so that they aren't just unhelpful addenda? Tricky.
For now, I'd prefer to wait, at least until TDIGUH is over and we've dealt with the previous suggestions for the timeline. But that's just me. -- Supermorff 08:38, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
OK, here's how I'm thinking a timeline for an individul would look, using Demona as an example. The timeline would be a new page called "Demona Timeline" or whatever. There would be links to it from the main timeline (maybe through a menu of links to secondary timelines at the top of the Timeline page?) and from Demona's main page, as well as anywhere else it's appropriate. The timeline would focus on the most major events in Demona's life, such as hatch date, first meeting with MacBeth, getting turned into a human during the day by Puck, first meeting with Angela, etc. It would not include every canon event in her life. The modern day events of "Long Way to Morning" and possibly some parts of "Temptation" could be omitted. The individual entries would also not be as exhaustive as they are in the main Timeline. Instead of describing events in full detail, you could just say "Wyvern Massacre", "Meets Angela", or "Saves Gruoch", with links to the appropriate pages for more info. It's a timeline that assume the reader knows what's going on or will look for more information on other pages. No information will be taken out of the main timeline; as I said, this is supplimental material. Right now, if you want to know how old Demona was when she first encountered Macbeth or how long after finding the Praying Gargoyle she used it in "Hunter's Moon", it's tough to figure it out because you have to wade through all the dates for everything that happened in the Gargoyles universe. I'd like these to be simple, easy to read timelines for important characters, groups, or events so our readers can get a sense of their chronology without having to dig through everything else. -- Demonskrye 14:55, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
We could always simply put these character timelines ON the character pages. You go to Demona's page and somewhere (probably below characteristics) there is a section called Timeline or whatever listing all these things. Just a thought -- Matt 09:44, 3 April 2008 (CDT)
I prefer including such timelines in the character pages themselves, at least to start with. If they get unwieldy, we can split them off to specialised articles later on. -- Supermorff 13:44, 3 April 2008 (CDT)

OK, I've now finished the first character timeline, available for viewing on the Demona page. It doesn't include every Demona related event in the big timeline, just the ones that seem particularly important for her story. It's also a lot more brief in his descriptions, working on the assumption that people who don't know what "Wyvern Massacre" means will check the article, read Demona's history, consult the big Timline, or watch the episodes. I may play around with other format options in the future; the double spacing between years does make it kind of lonf but it seems easier to read to me. It's open to editing, but I'd also like to know what everyone thinks and whether we should consider doing more of these. -- Demonskrye 16:00, 18 April 2008 (CDT)

I think it's a good idea, though it will take a while. Are we talking every character here, or just the main ones? I think it might be a good idea to link the article words in the timeline and to add episode citations, even if they are already elsewhere in the article, just in case someone wants to just look at the timeline and not read the article.--PGFish 23:46, 18 April 2008 (CDT)


So, despite our best efforts, I still don't really like the way we mark CIT information in this Timeline. It's a sensible system, I guess, not marking events that can be corroborated as historical, but I don't like it. Even when events aren't marked CIT (even when they are CIT), the dates attached to them usually are. In fact, even canon events have CIT dates mostly (except for Halloween stories and the last couple of issues of the comic). It just... I don't like it.

I don't think any system would satisfy everyone, and I don't want to mark every piece of CIT information in the Timeline because then it would be mostly blue in some parts. But how's this for a suggestion: we don't mark the Timeline for CIT at all? We can include a disclaimer at the top of the page saying "This page is not marked for canon-in-training information", and remove all of the CIT templates from throughout the article. Users can work out whether information is CIT by clicking on appropriate links (particularly if there is an episode citation, in which case the information is clearly canon). If there are no links, then it is probably CIT.

If nothing else, it'll make the page a lot shorter, and a lot easier to manage if we don't have to worry about where the CIT templates go and whatnot. What do you think? -- Supermorff 08:38, 2 April 2008 (CDT)

Personally, I think it would be better to just put a disclaimer at the top stating that only events are marked for CiT and that dates are either canon or CiT, but are not marked as such. The fact is, pretty much all dates that aren't just the year are CiT with the exception of the Halloweens of 1995 and 1996, the events of the Stone of Destiny storyline, and anything I may have forgotten that names an exact date. Additionally, unless Greg publishes his timeline (which would kind of kill the need for the timeline anyway), we get flashbacks of scenes that already happened on the show or some really awkward exposition ("Hey, remember how we got sent to the rookery on September 30, 994?") most dates are going to remain CiT, possibly forever. I see your thinking, but I just feel like getting rid of all the CiT marking in the timeline is throwing the hatchling out with the bathwater. Because of the nature of this wiki's subject, I think one of our jobs is to clearly separate canon from CiT from apocrypha. I think we already have work to do on clearly identifying Aprocrypha articles. I don't think it would be wise to create a major page where readers can't tell canon from CiT without further investigation. -- Demonskrye 15:13, 2 April 2008 (CDT)
Yeah, okay, but we really do need that disclaimer saying that dates are not marked for CIT one way or another. And we need a disclaimer saying that certain historical events that are not marked for CIT actually are CIT. -- Supermorff 13:41, 3 April 2008 (CDT)


Greg B, where are you getting the precise dates for the events of Estranged? Can you cite them at all? Obviously we know about the New Years Eve date, but the others? Oh, and Robyn's birthdate has not been confirmed by Greg Weisman. In fact, though June 19th may be her birthdate, Greg pointed out long ago that comic covers are not canon. -- Matt 19:05, 23 May 2008 (CDT)

I e-mailed Greg Weisman on the dates for the events of "Estranged", and June 19th is his sister's birthday. The date changed since the previous version of the cover. And since Jon's birthday is the same as Jon Weisman's, I don't think it's a leap at all to say that this is legit. - GregX
Cool. Glad to have those dates. Just checking. -- Matt 19:27, 23 May 2008 (CDT)